Goalkeepers in PES

[ShaneJoshua80]

Ever since I have been playing PES there has been one element that has never been consistant and that is the goalkeepers performance.

I used to play in goal myself as a youngster and used to love watching how different keepers performed such as Grobblelaar, Seaman, Schmiechel and Ilgner.

I think Konami should be looking to add a bit more individuality in the keepers as a good goalkeeper can win you games where as a bad one can cost you.

I am going to break it down into two main areas

Stats
Animations


Stats

The stats for goakeepers could be alot more varied and relevant like they are for the outfield players. Stats more like thos one Football Manager would makes sense. for example

Agility = How nimble they are at getting across the goal or to shots.

Reflexes = How quickly they react.

Handling = How well they hold the ball.

Ariel Ability = How well they deal with corsses.

Distribution = How accuratley the kick and throw.

Distribution skill = How skilled they are a varying their kicks i.e high trojectory, slow speed or low trajectory faster speed.

Distribution Speed = How quickly their kicks and throws take to reach players.

One on ones = How well the keepers does in one on ones

Aggression = The more aggressive the quicker the goalkeeper comes of his line(maybe aggression is the wrong word )

I think stats along this line would be better suited and then with the card system Konami could come up with appropriate themed cards.

Animations

The Goalkeepers a far too generic on PES they all move the same and they all act the same apart from suitble differances. GOALKEEPRS ARE DIFFERENT!!

Firstly the way they dive, due to agility, weight & height you'll notice some goalkeepers can get higher of the ground than others

David James although big, imposing and blessed with excellent relfexs does not seem to have as much agility/spring as some one like Schmiechel









PES does not always get it right in terms of animations for Keepers for instance they always dive in this manner below for freekicks



Look at this clip at 0.19 and you see the keeper stretching with the arm furthest froim the ball this is not right. Again at 1.57 this shows itself again. Now look at a video of keepers in real life and you'll notice the difference.



Look at the way Reina reacts he dives with the correct hand stretched




It is common that if you beat the keeper with a long ranger or a powerful freekick. They will dive with the upper arm outstretched as opposed to the lower are when the ball is closer.

This is used too frequently as keepers only tend to do this in real life for shots in the upper areas of the goal if they are stretching and its their closest hand.

but this is where PES gets it wrong as most of the time the upper hand is not always the closest.

It would be better to see and animation more like this


[img][http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/scorecard_daily/2004/11/16/1116/lead6.jpg/img]




or for shots higher in the goal





When saving penalties it is very rare to see a keeper save with one hand although it does happen but more often than not it's a two handed save such as








There are other little touches that Konami could add such as when a keeper pulls of a fnatastic stop firtsly the crowd react, secondly the player may react to going close and thirdly the goalkeeper doing this



you could maybe have the players patting him on the back and reacting if it's a penalty save during play.

Keepers also have different one on one stances which can make them harder to beat, this could almost be like a running or free kick style for a keeper.

examples below

Shay Given






Schmiechel's



Watch from 1.24 onwards and you'll see.

Different types of throwing styles as well would add to the individualtity such as David James' javalin type throw or Schmiechel's massive throw.

[ShaneJoshua80]

Just to add that I alos noticed the low one handed saves feel a bit limp watch the Scmiechel vid and you'll see how PES goalkeepers could be made to be more dynamic. When they dive it's need to be animated in a way that they are moving with purpose and not just to make a good shot look better.

The photo missing from the top part of my post was this



This was to again emphesise the fact that reall keepers very rarely dive with that upper arm reaching for the ball. The reason is you are going to be in less control of the dive when stretching with the upper hand when trying to cover more of the goal.

When I was playing and looking at pros the only time you'd stretch with the upper arm is when you have less of the goal to cover and will not be springing across the goal.

[ELviS]

Amazing job.... just freakin awesome!!! I think that KONAMI must put some more work on goalkeepers because i really feel them as puppets like they are there only to have smth in front of the goal! Goalkeepers in 08/09 are very passive ... in PES 5/6 they are ok but nothing more they still have been making some really stupid mistakes which can cost you the match, you cant really depend on goalkeepers in PES not like in fifa where gk's are well done
If KONAMI put 1 week trying to figure out how to make goalkeepers more agile as the guy from the upper post said which is the very truth PES will become more realistic and less frustrating for the fans!!!

[England]

Good ideas here lads. well done.

[ELviS]

The one thing that KONAMI must have in mind is that goalkeepers are crazy Goalkeepers are smth more...from personal experience i can say that "indeed we are crazy" we train differently, we play differently, we are INSANE, every single player believe in us when we are 1v1 with an enemy player, so we must really fast think like the attacker and block em from making space for goal.
For me the goalkeepers are really bad in 08/09, their reactions, their agility and understanding of the game when they have to interfere... and omg the animations which are realy poor!!!
Reactions, reflexes. agility, AI, and animation must be really well balanced and done!!
ShaneJoshua80 man thanky for this post, people like you are the ones that can help this amazing game get better and better each year!!!
And also please let us control the goalkeepers in 1v1 situations or make an option with which when select it we can play with goalkeepers or when it is off the gk will be in AI's control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUjvZtir-P8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEUiKTtR5SM&feature=related
The beauty of the art of goalkeeping!!!

[Exclusive]

Great suggestions posted before, but in addition:

- The major thing that should be improved is that in PES 2010 you can't run around the keeper no more to score easy goals. In PES 2009 if you went towards the goal in a one-on-one situation, the best way of succes is to just run 'around' the keeper and putting the ball in the net (sort of open goal, thus easy goals). The main reason this worked, are the lack of re-positioning of goalkeepers in PES 2009. Goalkeepers in PES 2009 are sort of floating on the turf, rather than making sidesteps all the time - they never really seam to really plant their feet on the turf (like real-life). No re-positioning what so ever. You can also see it when a player shoots from distance in PES 2009. Goalkeepers hardly make sidesteps before diving to the corner.

- Goal keepers should be able to resume play in more different ways. When they collect the ball they should be able to (PS3 based):
pressing X: underhand throw to a player standing near / nearest to the goalie.
pressing Square: long throw to a player furter up the pitch. In real-life you see this a lot when trying to execute a counter.
pressing O: Normal drop-kick
pressing Triangle: Animations! --> for example goal keeper weaving his arms to 'say' players should move deeper (and actually seeing players / strikers making a run!)... or when double tap: animating moves to 'say' take it easy. So no real actions, just nice touches. Pressing Triangle should also show animations when taking penalty kicks. Like Dudek did with the Liverpool Champions League Final against Milan. That would be cool!

- When horrible goalkeepers make mistakes (like real-life), the commontaters should mention this; so you know it's part of the game like real-life.

That's about all. Thanks for taking time reading this; keep up the good work Konami !!!

[estebanrey]

Goal Keepers - What would you like to see?

Adam and Suff reported that in the play test they took part in they were using PES 2009 goal keepers. To me, the way keepers are handled makes a big difference and can make or break a footy game. There has to be a sense of beating him given your judgement of that particular shooting situation and not by doing a certain set of actions that mean you always beat him like it can be now.

With that in mind I'll list my ideas and invite you all to do the same...let's hope Konami listen.

1) Positioning/movement - Currently it is easy to beat the keeper by running from the sideline (at which time the GK is standing on his near post as he should) and running down or up vertically and hitting it into the far corner. The keepers move so slowly in regards to positioning they are leave huge areas of the goals to aim at and just running in one direction usually beats the keeper because he is too slow to side step properly to cover. A keeper should nearly always be in the correct position and should move according to the player with the ball a lot more realistically.

2) Corners - Keepers need to command their areas a lot better. Currently from a corner a keeper will only catch it if comes right at him, he should make much more of hand effort, palming and punching where he can't catch.

3) Distribution - Give us more of it and more control of keeper ball distribution. For example when a keeper has it in his hand you should be able to throw it or roll it and to the player you choose. If you elect to kick you should be able to select the general area you want the ball to fall as opposed to the current system which is totally random.

4) Goal Keeper stats – In previous versions all you had was one stat for the GK. I hope that thing like jump and reaction also played a part but I think keepers should have specialised stats. They should include

Reaction – effects shot stopping ability from close range
Decision making – how well a keeper makes judgements like to come out or not, punch or catch etc.
Jump – Amount of spring they have and therefore ability to make stretching diving saves.
Punch/Catch – Slider that affects their inclination to punch or catch a ball.
1v1 style – Whether a keeper rushes and makes himself big and slides or jogs out and tries to stay on his feet.
Bravery – how much a keeper will put his head on the line to stop a ball. Petr Cech’s would probably be pretty low nowadays.


...so guys, how what would you like to see in terms of keepers on PES 2010?

[ferdinand]

You are right i all.

Maybe, a good and "more simply" way to upgrade Keepers, its with the Card System... I hope that has been incorporate to the keepers too.

[ELviS]

Check this thread viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1092

[ShaneJoshua80]

Goal Keepers - What would you like to see?

Adam and Suff reported that in the play test they took part in they were using PES 2009 goal keepers. To me, the way keepers are handled makes a big difference and can make or break a footy game. There has to be a sense of beating him given your judgement of that particular shooting situation and not by doing a certain set of actions that mean you always beat him like it can be now.

With that in mind I'll list my ideas and invite you all to do the same...let's hope Konami listen.

1) Positioning/movement - Currently it is easy to beat the keeper by running from the sideline (at which time the GK is standing on his near post as he should) and running down or up vertically and hitting it into the far corner. The keepers move so slowly in regards to positioning they are leave huge areas of the goals to aim at and just running in one direction usually beats the keeper because he is too slow to side step properly to cover. A keeper should nearly always be in the correct position and should move according to the player with the ball a lot more realistically.

2) Corners - Keepers need to command their areas a lot better. Currently from a corner a keeper will only catch it if comes right at him, he should make much more of hand effort, palming and punching where he can't catch.

3) Distribution - Give us more of it and more control of keeper ball distribution. For example when a keeper has it in his hand you should be able to throw it or roll it and to the player you choose. If you elect to kick you should be able to select the general area you want the ball to fall as opposed to the current system which is totally random.

4) Goal Keeper stats – In previous versions all you had was one stat for the GK. I hope that thing like jump and reaction also played a part but I think keepers should have specialised stats. They should include

Reaction – effects shot stopping ability from close range
Decision making – how well a keeper makes judgements like to come out or not, punch or catch etc.
Jump – Amount of spring they have and therefore ability to make stretching diving saves.
Punch/Catch – Slider that affects their inclination to punch or catch a ball.
1v1 style – Whether a keeper rushes and makes himself big and slides or jogs out and tries to stay on his feet.
Bravery – how much a keeper will put his head on the line to stop a ball. Petr Cech’s would probably be pretty low nowadays.


...so guys, how what would you like to see in terms of keepers on PES 2010?

This is right because it seems like the keepers just dive for the sake of making a shot look good. The amount of times i've scored a belter and then replayed it and it was savable but the keepers were not closing the angle. Goals should feel more earned than they are.

Keepers need to move into position quicker so you really have to think about where you place a shot and they should learn as well. It would be cooler if they were a bit more commanding in terms of crosses as well.

[ShaneJoshua80]

After playing the PES 2009 demo(I know it's not full game) I notice that the way goalkeepers move full stop is lethargic right down to the way they land after a dive. Look at the video below.



and this one



this one as well it's like the keepers just dive sideways without any athleticism like the a routed to the spot.(The animation for the GK on the Mutu freekick is how it should be)



Maybe I am being too picky but they dont seem to have they springness of their real life counterparts. Although in the second video the keepers outstreatches the right arm correctly.



Look at this and take a look at the saves at 0.40, 0.43, 1.20, 1.44, 2.04, 2.09(again this show when the upper hand will be stretched correctly to save the ball.), 2.13, 2.37(This captures the how dynamic keepers are but also how they really stretch for the ball)



Also look at the way the keepers land as in PES they kind of just thud to the floor like a lifeless sack. I really think Konami should look at mo-capping GKs for PES 2011.

[jihado86]

I found in pes 2009 that GK's stop the unstoppable balls, but they conceed easy goals...
I hope pes 2010 make some equivalence in GK stops

[Exclusive]

Great work fellas!

There's still one MAJOR, MAJOR adjustment that needs to be made:
In PES 2009 you could let a goalkeeper make a save when pressing the triangle and circle buttons at the same time (on PS3). But a lot of the time the goalkeeper would indeed dive to try to make the save, but the defender / player you were controlling would also make a sliding!!! Something you obviously don't want to do, but it resulted in many Penalty Kicks as the defender would take the player down

So for PES 2010: instead of pressing triangle & circle to let the goalkeeper dive, you should press triangle & square to let the goalkeeper dive!!! This way you won't accidently make a sliding tackle with the defender you are controlling! Would remove a massive frustration to the game we all love

Good luck Konami,
Peace Exclusive

[ELviS]

1) The difference between average goalkeeper and Buffon, Chech, Cassilas and many other must be the way the goalkeeper is doing in 1v1 situations or how good they are responding in corners, melee's in the box etc.
2) In 1v1 situation the goalkeepers are trying to close down the angle for the attacker in which he can score, and they must dash to get the ball lie in pes6 but there they weren't closing the angle at all they were just charging for the ball.
3) The response is awful in the GC code, the animations are silly, the way they are dealing with the ball is pathetic there is no goalkeeper in the world who will save a ball with his legs and fall down... they have hands for crying out loud.
4) In corners or fouls when the ball is delivered in the box the keepers must punch the ball not just watch it...
5) Just a simple example of goalkeeper reflexes
also video which shows how the keepers animation must be done, KONAMI did a great job in PES 5/6 , but after that they totally blew it!!!

[ShaneJoshua80]

The video above examplfies exactly what Konami need to do, these guys a the cats of football after all. These one handed saves have got to look alot more realistic. Most of all they should react with some dynasism.

[Balance]

The goalkeepers in the demo are terrible.
Please make them parry the ball less often, if the parry it out of a dangerous area that's ok but they parry in to the path of a striker leading to easy goals.

[Crisbee]

not like in fifa where gk's are well done

Thanks for making my day! LOOOL
FIFA's GK are well done? oO They act like noobs in FIFA, when they are in 2 on 1 situation. Positioning of GK in FIFA is bad...so bad...

[not so wise owl]

Having played the demo I'm more impressed than 2009 BUT please fix the silly bugs that frustrate sooo much. Some of the mistakes the keepers make just spoil the game, then they make out of this world saves, consistency is the key, keepers playing at that level shouldnt be making errors on the scale I've seen time and time again.

Goalkeeping is my passion, I played professional and then semi-pro for nearly 20 years I'm now a fully qualified coach working weekly with academy keepers.
Please fix the keepers they are THE most important player on the pitch, they make or break a team.

Also please do something about the clash of kits, for instance Reina at Liverpool in all yellow, same as the refs(who should change to a neutral colour) or the opposition(Reina should cahnge to all green), surely this is a simple equation.
There was a rumour that gloves were to be licensed this year, I take it this has been shelved? the gloves this year look a better shape but please don't make them all black on the backhand for every keeper, a better option would be plain white, better still would be the option to tweak them in edit mode.

Sorry if it sounds a bit anal and geeky but these things add to the realism

[ELviS]

not like in fifa where gk's are well done

Thanks for making my day! LOOOL
FIFA's GK are well done? oO They act like noobs in FIFA, when they are in 2 on 1 situation. Positioning of GK in FIFA is bad...so bad...

Positioning in PES is BAD in NG games lol... in PES 6 keepers were fine they just needed some more polishing and animations.
Look at those videos and compare PES 10 in pes keepers are using their legs more then hands. Youtube is being "nuked" by goalkeepers idiotic behavior and stupidity...
Fifa 09 fifas keepers aren't perfect but their reactions are better then PES nextgen games
Now the keepers are like dodge/parry and never catch the ball.....

[ShaneJoshua80]

Having played the demo I'm more impressed than 2009 BUT please fix the silly bugs that frustrate sooo much. Some of the mistakes the keepers make just spoil the game, then they make out of this world saves, consistency is the key, keepers playing at that level shouldnt be making errors on the scale I've seen time and time again.

Goalkeeping is my passion, I played professional and then semi-pro for nearly 20 years I'm now a fully qualified coach working weekly with academy keepers.
Please fix the keepers they are THE most important player on the pitch, they make or break a team.

Also please do something about the clash of kits, for instance Reina at Liverpool in all yellow, same as the refs(who should change to a neutral colour) or the opposition(Reina should cahnge to all green), surely this is a simple equation.
There was a rumour that gloves were to be licensed this year, I take it this has been shelved? the gloves this year look a better shape but please don't make them all black on the backhand for every keeper, a better option would be plain white, better still would be the option to tweak them in edit mode.

Sorry if it sounds a bit anal and geeky but these things add to the realism

not so wise owl is right you should be able to change the GKs shirt the same way we can change the playing kit.