PES2013 NEWS, DISCUSSION, VIDEOS & SCREENS (Part 5)

[skiamakia]

PESianity ‏@chaos_PES

Exclusive news, courtesy of @robbyearon & @WENB_US : Copa Libertadores will be part of master league! Translations: @WENBlog and @WENBlog_de


this is the big news

Told ya it would be license related. This is huge news really, finally able to access the rising stars of south America in Master League!

i think there is a big chance that information about full Argentinian an Brazil leagues is true, because if libertadores is included in ML, for full functionality at least these two leagues must be licensed plus other Latin clubs

[Bravez]

@Adam

I know it's highly unlikely but my knowledge is poor in this area. How difficult is it for konami to remove and replace the poorest of animations like those when they leap straight up.

Also, those when they dive but have legs bent in and completely static and dive as if they're trying to ctach the ball. If they add an animation that uses same logic but with a proper outstretched keeper, will it need re-writing from scratch?

Well, it can be done just by the animators. But it's difficult to do in such a short space of time.

Luckily you guys sent me the images of the awkward animations, and I forwarded them on instantly. I'll get a good look at the game on Wednesday, lets just hope they've already made advancements, as the videos were from a very old code.

Well that's encouraging and would be amazing if they can do something but also a bit baffling as to why they haven't got them to eve a satisfactory level.

I know it has been spoken about a lot and we're in danger of banging on about it too much but it can't be stressed enough to Konami just how much a little improvement will improve the overall look and feel of the game, especially in goal scoring moments. I thought we had fed-back enough on the last year but it seems not.

Still, with the rest of the game shaping up so nicely it will hopefully only be a slight blemish on an otherwise wonderful game.

[ian84]

If we look at player ID/pro active ai gameplay vids from neymar and ribery part played in day light, it is absolutely looks fantastic. But still unsure why Konami spend most of the trailers including the latest one in that poor night lighting.

Playing PES 2012 in PC with some modified turf & night lighting adjustment from mod at evo-web, it is much better than konami's default for night play. So there is still time for Konami to improve it since modder is able to that, why Konami couldnt ?

Adam, if i am not mistaken you have also concerned with Konami's night lighting for PES 2012, yes ? Hopefully, you have mentioned to the dev and they are doing something about it.

[_anderson]

@Adam

I know it's highly unlikely but my knowledge is poor in this area. How difficult is it for konami to remove and replace the poorest of animations like those when they leap straight up.

Also, those when they dive but have legs bent in and completely static and dive as if they're trying to ctach the ball. If they add an animation that uses same logic but with a proper outstretched keeper, will it need re-writing from scratch?

Well, it can be done just by the animators. But it's difficult to do in such a short space of time.

Luckily you guys sent me the images of the awkward animations, and I forwarded them on instantly. I'll get a good look at the game on Wednesday, lets just hope they've already made advancements, as the videos were from a very old code.

I guess an alternative solution for them would be doing what they apparently did for the rest of the players, re-use PS2 animations. PS2 goalkeepers were very good, if there's no technical limitation for them to do it, someone should suggest them to do so

[saintric]

After watching the trailers again still impressed but have a slight concern that I believe Adam has already touched on? heavy use of deft dribble (im yet to listen to podcast) although it looks great in action it will become annoying and un-realistic if its overused especially if the AI keep using it

I remember in the last gen games you used to pause the game and replay a suttle touch a player did like "wow did you see that" this is what Konami should aim for, suttle yet brilliant movements

[saintric]

I dont think the PS2 animations were as great as people remember its just that they were very fluid when linked together

[_anderson]

I dont think the PS2 animations were as great as people remember its just that they were very fluid when linked together

I don't remember them, I've been playing patched PES 6. And yes, the majority of them were great. Keepers are incomparably better than the ones this gen.

[Colossal]

Hi guys I was gonna make this post last month but i forgot. The flaws are still present in the recent trailers so here goes.

New Pes trailer to kick of the hype for a new season. My excitement after reading the press features quickly died after watching the trailer. I
I have recently began studying animations and this clip looks like a student demo to me and not the work of a mega cooporation.

Animation Primer
-----------------
A quick wikipedia search for the 12 principles of animation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_p ... _animation) would inform you of all you need. There are supposedly more for computer animation but most based on the 12.
In both cases their rules are often meant for non-realistic characters but they are still the basis for all animation and even used in Anime but with some shortcuts.

Major re-occurence and bad animation techniques
------------------------------------------------
In 2007, one of the most repeated news about pes 2008 was that they were gonna use a new animations system due to the fact that they have increased the number of bones in the spine from 2 (Old-gen: ps2 , wii) to 3 (Current-gen: PC, Ps3, 360). That year we saw a horrible implementation of the system.
Instead of focusing on adding more curves and expresivity to the spine/torso they added more sway and swinging.
Naturally men move shoulders more and women move hips, so when Suff said it looked like his sister running he was spot on.
Slowly they were removed but now they are very stiff looking. They may be the same as the ps2 version but due to the longer torso and the point of curvature it looks super stiff. It also looks like there are only 2 bones once more.
Fifa does just enough spine curvature. Uncharted 2 add life to their characters with procedural breathing for every locomotion eg running, idle (GDC 09, 10, 11) gdcvault.com


The strides the players take seems unrealistically large. Full length strides are usually reserved for sprinting. In konami's case - due to the ball often being too far when the animation is triggered it creates a stuttered feel to the movement as the players have to strech to meet the ball. They probably did this to make tackle animations look good and avoid legs cliping and relied on their IK (inverse kinematics) to make it look accurate and not good. The animator might have realized the streching and added more frames post contact with ball to make it look good hence the unresponsiveness in pes 2010.

As far as responsiveness goes, often in Japanese animations (Anime and Games) they prefer working with less frames as it creates more snappy feel to the animations and ompf as well as it being cheaper to create (Especially when key framed by hand). Now counter this with the traditional disney rubbery feel you get from the west. Think i am lying? Just youtube any Japanese animation and what how often they move their characters and how lond they are willing to keep them static and move only the essentials even most of their games lack slow pensive animation (Except Final fantasy. The point I am trying to make is that they may not be used to simulation quality animation. But that may not matter since they are using mocap in a very small room and the actor cannot even sprint in that prison room.
(see pes 2011 press trip)

Their solution to unresposniveness looks as though it involved removing frames which means joints traveled over longer distance in shorter time periods meaning less smootness and fluidity. It also help with performance meanign less memory is taken. Compare that with EA and Fifa 2008. They visibly had more frames to their animations and did not want to lose that quality for responsiveness, therefore they came up with a more naturally looking method of warping the play back time of animations especially when coming in contact with the ball (GDC 2010). It means the animation can be quick when they need it to be and slow when they dont need it but keepign fluidity all together.

Eye tracking is totaly random in pes. Often it sucks out the intention and anticipation from an animation. Doesnt influence the rest of the body well enough (Head, neck, shoulders , chest). EA does this with the help of HumanIK. There are many easily programmable solutions to this outside human IK.

Extreme joint rotations. Konami seems to have no problems rotating the characters to the max of their joints. considering how many people cannot voluntarily do that it makes the animations look insane. Couple that with their frequent use of twining, we get a very stiff and robotic look to the game. EA's flailing arms may look stupid but it is forgiveable in comparison. Also it seems ea might be using some procedural method for that.
Perfectly Horizontal and vertical limb poses (90 or 180 degrees) are always to be avoided. Also when working with IK perfectly straight limbs often cause popping.
Actually Chair Entertainment(Makers of Infinity Blade and Shadow complex) released a talk where they describe a very simple and cheap way to include natural physics into animations. Things like drag and follow through that would liven and un-stiffen the hands and the feet when in the air (Gamefest 2008).
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

I went through a lot of the clip frame by frame and these are some notes on the most horrible frames and poses that stood out in the pes trailer
I seem to have lost image 04.


01) - Air trap
**************************
This image reeks of stiffness. The jersey and shorts fold dont help.

A. Totally stiff undynamic spine
B. Twining arms. Undynamic., bicycle handlebars.
C. Mucular leg looks too abnormal could be tonded down to give better shape to poses (Mre of model than animation).
the knee could also be turn a bit more to the outside to counter the direction of the ball and enhance the cushioning effect the skill is meant to potray.
D. The leg should be a bit more relaxed to give grace and fluidity to the animation. There is no need for that much tension and effort in a limb that has no purpos to the action. Snaping the feet to its maximum bend passively/ sub conciously seems implausible.


02) - Run A
**************************
The most common animation frame in pes.

A. Arms twining. Unnecesarily stressed, stiff and robotic. Not optimal for running probably even worse. Urealistic joint range.
B. Straight spine. Maybe not so traight but so undynamic.
C. Unbelievable streched leg. Its so straight all joints are at their limits extended to their max. Loses all form of appeal and grace. Look at the toe and knee in the image to the left.
D. Was probably complainting about how low the knee is and how much it forces ronaldo to dip.
E. What is he looking at? What is his intention? anticipation.
F. This explains D better. Ronaldo is literarilty streching like hell. It shows he is barely in control of the ball and it means that his touch should not be good. Most importantly it means when he plants his foot its gonna take even more effort to get the next step in and he would have to dip really low. This does not promote fluidity. It makes sudden agile movements difficult in real life and in animations it would make blends pop or require more frames.


03) - Run B
**************************
A regular knock ball running animation. Dont remember why i picked this frame.

A. Not sure what he is looking at consider how lose the ball is from him but it is passable
B. His arms are twining. They look stick and lifeless. Also a very boring torso. Even if he was stoping to controll the ball it looks too undesireable.
C. Cannot remember why i picked C but i think he has reached the clima of his step while still too far from the ball.


05) - Acute Turn
**************************
This is a turn at speed of around 30-60 degrees. The pose has very little motion and doesnt look very dynamic

A. Very robotic stiff arm swing. Clenched fist doesnt help make it appealing. Equally stiff shoulder
B. The distance to the ball seems very large and would put the player at a disadvantage mid move due to the fact that
there would be a need to rebalance after the step making turns less than fluid especially when continous
C. Zero body lean and extremley stiff brick of a torso.
D. Not sure what he is looking at. Removes purpose intentionality and intensity. Weakens the anticipation of the move.




06) - Step over
**************************
This image epitomises the guy sitting on the chair and flinging his legs feel of step overs.

A. Arm looks stiff and robotic. Very mechanical looking swing
B. Just like in A the shoulders look very stiff and tensed. Raised
C. The distance the foot has to travels seems too large and contributes to the streched snappy feel of the move
D. Torso Once again is perfectly straight doesnt seem to be leaning or hunching forward

Also i noticed Adam talked about how the animations are often oblivious to their environment.
A technique EA uses is to play 2 or more different animations.
One for upper body and the other for lower body (Or just hands or spine)
NBA 2k12 also uses this to animate their jump shots

http://www.gamespot.com/news/madden-nfl ... on-6257086
http://www.digitalsportscene.net/forum/ ... otion.html

It requires a bit of tuning to get right.


Regards

[ian84]

PES never has this one, i thought we will eventually see it in PES 2013..



Above is one handed save for top left corner with left hand. Please, i would love to see above animation in PES 2013. In previous versions, this ball direction will usually be handled with GK's right hand. Yes, this exist according to how far too the corner the ball is..

[MichaelBroadhead_]

MY favourite from PES 6 was when the GK sprung to the side with his arm out stretched one handed save, been playing PES 6 lately and on the slow motion replays they show it looks amazing.

[Colossal]

I dont think the PS2 animations were as great as people remember its just that they were very fluid when linked together

I don't remember them, I've been playing patched PES 6. And yes, the majority of them were great. Keepers are incomparably better than the ones this gen.

I always thought it was nostalgia till i played we10 last night. Almost cried cos the summer of 2006 was hella fun.
the animations were fast but still fluid and highly detailed. The only thing that could be better was the torso animation. The y used 2 bones for the spine in PS2 and in this generation they used 3 so they can give it more of a curve. In real life its more than 10 but computers suffer with that and its hard to animate that many bones.

The main problem with pes goal keeper animations is that they seem to just fall and rely too much on their upper body to twist and stretch. if they use more leg in the animations it would have more character and fluidity.

Also as a rule of thumb it is best when the keepers head is behind the ball all the time cos he needs to be able to look at it. Always try to avoid having the keeper diving backwards or towards his own goal if possible. The upper and lower body should not lie in the same plane or they would look like planks. Goal keeper's dominant hand.
If the Goal keepers shuffled before long range dives it would show anticipation.

We need to see variations in quick saves. For variation/ if they have the budget they can add fumble and save animations . Ball slip and re-gather.


As far as logic is concerned. GK always hold slow shots and punch fast ones.

[maremas]

Hi guys I was gonna make this post last month but i forgot. The flaws are still present in the recent trailers so here goes.

New Pes trailer to kick of the hype for a new season. My excitement after reading the press features quickly died after watching the trailer. I
I have recently began studying animations and this clip looks like a student demo to me and not the work of a mega cooporation.

Animation Primer
-----------------
A quick wikipedia search for the 12 principles of animation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_p ... _animation) would inform you of all you need. There are supposedly more for computer animation but most based on the 12.
In both cases their rules are often meant for non-realistic characters but they are still the basis for all animation and even used in Anime but with some shortcuts.

Major re-occurence and bad animation techniques
------------------------------------------------
In 2007, one of the most repeated news about pes 2008 was that they were gonna use a new animations system due to the fact that they have increased the number of bones in the spine from 2 (Old-gen: ps2 , wii) to 3 (Current-gen: PC, Ps3, 360). That year we saw a horrible implementation of the system.
Instead of focusing on adding more curves and expresivity to the spine/torso they added more sway and swinging.
Naturally men move shoulders more and women move hips, so when Suff said it looked like his sister running he was spot on.
Slowly they were removed but now they are very stiff looking. They may be the same as the ps2 version but due to the longer torso and the point of curvature it looks super stiff. It also looks like there are only 2 bones once more.
Fifa does just enough spine curvature. Uncharted 2 add life to their characters with procedural breathing for every locomotion eg running, idle (GDC 09, 10, 11) gdcvault.com


The strides the players take seems unrealistically large. Full length strides are usually reserved for sprinting. In konami's case - due to the ball often being too far when the animation is triggered it creates a stuttered feel to the movement as the players have to strech to meet the ball. They probably did this to make tackle animations look good and avoid legs cliping and relied on their IK (inverse kinematics) to make it look accurate and not good. The animator might have realized the streching and added more frames post contact with ball to make it look good hence the unresponsiveness in pes 2010.

As far as responsiveness goes, often in Japanese animations (Anime and Games) they prefer working with less frames as it creates more snappy feel to the animations and ompf as well as it being cheaper to create (Especially when key framed by hand). Now counter this with the traditional disney rubbery feel you get from the west. Think i am lying? Just youtube any Japanese animation and what how often they move their characters and how lond they are willing to keep them static and move only the essentials even most of their games lack slow pensive animation (Except Final fantasy. The point I am trying to make is that they may not be used to simulation quality animation. But that may not matter since they are using mocap in a very small room and the actor cannot even sprint in that prison room.
(see pes 2011 press trip)

Their solution to unresposniveness looks as though it involved removing frames which means joints traveled over longer distance in shorter time periods meaning less smootness and fluidity. It also help with performance meanign less memory is taken. Compare that with EA and Fifa 2008. They visibly had more frames to their animations and did not want to lose that quality for responsiveness, therefore they came up with a more naturally looking method of warping the play back time of animations especially when coming in contact with the ball (GDC 2010). It means the animation can be quick when they need it to be and slow when they dont need it but keepign fluidity all together.

Eye tracking is totaly random in pes. Often it sucks out the intention and anticipation from an animation. Doesnt influence the rest of the body well enough (Head, neck, shoulders , chest). EA does this with the help of HumanIK. There are many easily programmable solutions to this outside human IK.

Extreme joint rotations. Konami seems to have no problems rotating the characters to the max of their joints. considering how many people cannot voluntarily do that it makes the animations look insane. Couple that with their frequent use of twining, we get a very stiff and robotic look to the game. EA's flailing arms may look stupid but it is forgiveable in comparison. Also it seems ea might be using some procedural method for that.
Perfectly Horizontal and vertical limb poses (90 or 180 degrees) are always to be avoided. Also when working with IK perfectly straight limbs often cause popping.
Actually Chair Entertainment(Makers of Infinity Blade and Shadow complex) released a talk where they describe a very simple and cheap way to include natural physics into animations. Things like drag and follow through that would liven and un-stiffen the hands and the feet when in the air (Gamefest 2008).
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

I went through a lot of the clip frame by frame and these are some notes on the most horrible frames and poses that stood out in the pes trailer
I seem to have lost image 04.


01) - Air trap
**************************
This image reeks of stiffness. The jersey and shorts fold dont help.

A. Totally stiff undynamic spine
B. Twining arms. Undynamic., bicycle handlebars.
C. Mucular leg looks too abnormal could be tonded down to give better shape to poses (Mre of model than animation).
the knee could also be turn a bit more to the outside to counter the direction of the ball and enhance the cushioning effect the skill is meant to potray.
D. The leg should be a bit more relaxed to give grace and fluidity to the animation. There is no need for that much tension and effort in a limb that has no purpos to the action. Snaping the feet to its maximum bend passively/ sub conciously seems implausible.


02) - Run A
**************************
The most common animation frame in pes.

A. Arms twining. Unnecesarily stressed, stiff and robotic. Not optimal for running probably even worse. Urealistic joint range.
B. Straight spine. Maybe not so traight but so undynamic.
C. Unbelievable streched leg. Its so straight all joints are at their limits extended to their max. Loses all form of appeal and grace. Look at the toe and knee in the image to the left.
D. Was probably complainting about how low the knee is and how much it forces ronaldo to dip.
E. What is he looking at? What is his intention? anticipation.
F. This explains D better. Ronaldo is literarilty streching like hell. It shows he is barely in control of the ball and it means that his touch should not be good. Most importantly it means when he plants his foot its gonna take even more effort to get the next step in and he would have to dip really low. This does not promote fluidity. It makes sudden agile movements difficult in real life and in animations it would make blends pop or require more frames.


03) - Run B
**************************
A regular knock ball running animation. Dont remember why i picked this frame.

A. Not sure what he is looking at consider how lose the ball is from him but it is passable
B. His arms are twining. They look stick and lifeless. Also a very boring torso. Even if he was stoping to controll the ball it looks too undesireable.
C. Cannot remember why i picked C but i think he has reached the clima of his step while still too far from the ball.


05) - Acute Turn
**************************
This is a turn at speed of around 30-60 degrees. The pose has very little motion and doesnt look very dynamic

A. Very robotic stiff arm swing. Clenched fist doesnt help make it appealing. Equally stiff shoulder
B. The distance to the ball seems very large and would put the player at a disadvantage mid move due to the fact that
there would be a need to rebalance after the step making turns less than fluid especially when continous
C. Zero body lean and extremley stiff brick of a torso.
D. Not sure what he is looking at. Removes purpose intentionality and intensity. Weakens the anticipation of the move.




06) - Step over
**************************
This image epitomises the guy sitting on the chair and flinging his legs feel of step overs.

A. Arm looks stiff and robotic. Very mechanical looking swing
B. Just like in A the shoulders look very stiff and tensed. Raised
C. The distance the foot has to travels seems too large and contributes to the streched snappy feel of the move
D. Torso Once again is perfectly straight doesnt seem to be leaning or hunching forward

Also i noticed Adam talked about how the animations are often oblivious to their environment.
A technique EA uses is to play 2 or more different animations.
One for upper body and the other for lower body (Or just hands or spine)
NBA 2k12 also uses this to animate their jump shots

http://www.gamespot.com/news/madden-nfl ... on-6257086
http://www.digitalsportscene.net/forum/ ... otion.html

It requires a bit of tuning to get right.


Regards

You must be joking, right?

[JStanley2392]

Hopefully come PES 2013 we'll have the following leagues in one form or another and tournaments- England, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Rest of World, UCL, Europa and Copa Lib. Just missing the German league sadly.

[Rach08]

Hi guys I was gonna make this post last month but i forgot. The flaws are still present in the recent trailers so here goes.

New Pes trailer to kick of the hype for a new season. My excitement after reading the press features quickly died after watching the trailer. I
I have recently began studying animations and this clip looks like a student demo to me and not the work of a mega cooporation.

Animation Primer
-----------------
A quick wikipedia search for the 12 principles of animation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_p ... _animation) would inform you of all you need. There are supposedly more for computer animation but most based on the 12.
In both cases their rules are often meant for non-realistic characters but they are still the basis for all animation and even used in Anime but with some shortcuts.

Major re-occurence and bad animation techniques
------------------------------------------------
In 2007, one of the most repeated news about pes 2008 was that they were gonna use a new animations system due to the fact that they have increased the number of bones in the spine from 2 (Old-gen: ps2 , wii) to 3 (Current-gen: PC, Ps3, 360). That year we saw a horrible implementation of the system.
Instead of focusing on adding more curves and expresivity to the spine/torso they added more sway and swinging.
Naturally men move shoulders more and women move hips, so when Suff said it looked like his sister running he was spot on.
Slowly they were removed but now they are very stiff looking. They may be the same as the ps2 version but due to the longer torso and the point of curvature it looks super stiff. It also looks like there are only 2 bones once more.
Fifa does just enough spine curvature. Uncharted 2 add life to their characters with procedural breathing for every locomotion eg running, idle (GDC 09, 10, 11) gdcvault.com


The strides the players take seems unrealistically large. Full length strides are usually reserved for sprinting. In konami's case - due to the ball often being too far when the animation is triggered it creates a stuttered feel to the movement as the players have to strech to meet the ball. They probably did this to make tackle animations look good and avoid legs cliping and relied on their IK (inverse kinematics) to make it look accurate and not good. The animator might have realized the streching and added more frames post contact with ball to make it look good hence the unresponsiveness in pes 2010.

As far as responsiveness goes, often in Japanese animations (Anime and Games) they prefer working with less frames as it creates more snappy feel to the animations and ompf as well as it being cheaper to create (Especially when key framed by hand). Now counter this with the traditional disney rubbery feel you get from the west. Think i am lying? Just youtube any Japanese animation and what how often they move their characters and how lond they are willing to keep them static and move only the essentials even most of their games lack slow pensive animation (Except Final fantasy. The point I am trying to make is that they may not be used to simulation quality animation. But that may not matter since they are using mocap in a very small room and the actor cannot even sprint in that prison room.
(see pes 2011 press trip)

Their solution to unresposniveness looks as though it involved removing frames which means joints traveled over longer distance in shorter time periods meaning less smootness and fluidity. It also help with performance meanign less memory is taken. Compare that with EA and Fifa 2008. They visibly had more frames to their animations and did not want to lose that quality for responsiveness, therefore they came up with a more naturally looking method of warping the play back time of animations especially when coming in contact with the ball (GDC 2010). It means the animation can be quick when they need it to be and slow when they dont need it but keepign fluidity all together.

Eye tracking is totaly random in pes. Often it sucks out the intention and anticipation from an animation. Doesnt influence the rest of the body well enough (Head, neck, shoulders , chest). EA does this with the help of HumanIK. There are many easily programmable solutions to this outside human IK.

Extreme joint rotations. Konami seems to have no problems rotating the characters to the max of their joints. considering how many people cannot voluntarily do that it makes the animations look insane. Couple that with their frequent use of twining, we get a very stiff and robotic look to the game. EA's flailing arms may look stupid but it is forgiveable in comparison. Also it seems ea might be using some procedural method for that.
Perfectly Horizontal and vertical limb poses (90 or 180 degrees) are always to be avoided. Also when working with IK perfectly straight limbs often cause popping.
Actually Chair Entertainment(Makers of Infinity Blade and Shadow complex) released a talk where they describe a very simple and cheap way to include natural physics into animations. Things like drag and follow through that would liven and un-stiffen the hands and the feet when in the air (Gamefest 2008).
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

I went through a lot of the clip frame by frame and these are some notes on the most horrible frames and poses that stood out in the pes trailer
I seem to have lost image 04.


01) - Air trap
**************************
This image reeks of stiffness. The jersey and shorts fold dont help.

A. Totally stiff undynamic spine
B. Twining arms. Undynamic., bicycle handlebars.
C. Mucular leg looks too abnormal could be tonded down to give better shape to poses (Mre of model than animation).
the knee could also be turn a bit more to the outside to counter the direction of the ball and enhance the cushioning effect the skill is meant to potray.
D. The leg should be a bit more relaxed to give grace and fluidity to the animation. There is no need for that much tension and effort in a limb that has no purpos to the action. Snaping the feet to its maximum bend passively/ sub conciously seems implausible.


02) - Run A
**************************
The most common animation frame in pes.

A. Arms twining. Unnecesarily stressed, stiff and robotic. Not optimal for running probably even worse. Urealistic joint range.
B. Straight spine. Maybe not so traight but so undynamic.
C. Unbelievable streched leg. Its so straight all joints are at their limits extended to their max. Loses all form of appeal and grace. Look at the toe and knee in the image to the left.
D. Was probably complainting about how low the knee is and how much it forces ronaldo to dip.
E. What is he looking at? What is his intention? anticipation.
F. This explains D better. Ronaldo is literarilty streching like hell. It shows he is barely in control of the ball and it means that his touch should not be good. Most importantly it means when he plants his foot its gonna take even more effort to get the next step in and he would have to dip really low. This does not promote fluidity. It makes sudden agile movements difficult in real life and in animations it would make blends pop or require more frames.


03) - Run B
**************************
A regular knock ball running animation. Dont remember why i picked this frame.

A. Not sure what he is looking at consider how lose the ball is from him but it is passable
B. His arms are twining. They look stick and lifeless. Also a very boring torso. Even if he was stoping to controll the ball it looks too undesireable.
C. Cannot remember why i picked C but i think he has reached the clima of his step while still too far from the ball.


05) - Acute Turn
**************************
This is a turn at speed of around 30-60 degrees. The pose has very little motion and doesnt look very dynamic

A. Very robotic stiff arm swing. Clenched fist doesnt help make it appealing. Equally stiff shoulder
B. The distance to the ball seems very large and would put the player at a disadvantage mid move due to the fact that
there would be a need to rebalance after the step making turns less than fluid especially when continous
C. Zero body lean and extremley stiff brick of a torso.
D. Not sure what he is looking at. Removes purpose intentionality and intensity. Weakens the anticipation of the move.




06) - Step over
**************************
This image epitomises the guy sitting on the chair and flinging his legs feel of step overs.

A. Arm looks stiff and robotic. Very mechanical looking swing
B. Just like in A the shoulders look very stiff and tensed. Raised
C. The distance the foot has to travels seems too large and contributes to the streched snappy feel of the move
D. Torso Once again is perfectly straight doesnt seem to be leaning or hunching forward

Also i noticed Adam talked about how the animations are often oblivious to their environment.
A technique EA uses is to play 2 or more different animations.
One for upper body and the other for lower body (Or just hands or spine)
NBA 2k12 also uses this to animate their jump shots

http://www.gamespot.com/news/madden-nfl ... on-6257086
http://www.digitalsportscene.net/forum/ ... otion.html

It requires a bit of tuning to get right.


Regards

Hehe Is this guy having a laugh???

[SickDL]

YESSSSSSSS!!!! I love konami(no homo) for putting copa in ml. We all know what that means. Eighter they have a few south american leagues licensed or there are fake leagues with a few licensed team lik epl now.

Anyway!! Its what i hope for. South american teams intregraded in ml!! Thank you konami

[_anderson]

Everything he said is legit tbh. But obviously, nothing can be done this gen. That's why it's so important they know what they're doing for the next gen. Like he said, PES 2008 was a technical disaster.

[Rach08]

Everything he said is legit tbh. But obviously, nothing can be done this gen. That's why it's so important they know what they're doing for the next gen. Like he said, PES 2008 was a technical disaster.

Who are you talking about?

[_anderson]

Everything he said is legit tbh. But obviously, nothing can be done this gen. That's why it's so important they know what they're doing for the next gen. Like he said, PES 2008 was a technical disaster.

Who are you talking about?

Colossal.

[Danny_Pt]

Terrific trailer. Improve the keepers, throw in some low socks and couple of different pitch patterns and I'll buy two copies of this years PES

aahhhhhh low socks!!



manual shooting as standard konami... everyone to be on the same playing field this year, at least in 1 department.

Haha! Yes! Low socks please. Especially conidering this is a year for individuality, it will really add to the likes of Hamsik, Arango, Milner, Totti etc.
But I wouldn't really count on it, Adam said low socks are unlikely to make it in. It's been some time when he told me that. Who knows, maybe the tables have turned.

What's the problem on having low socks again? Is it that complicated for Konami to do it?

Even FIFA has it!

[Adam]

Hi guys I was gonna make this post last month but i forgot. The flaws are still present in the recent trailers so here goes.

New Pes trailer to kick of the hype for a new season. My excitement after reading the press features quickly died after watching the trailer. I
I have recently began studying animations and this clip looks like a student demo to me and not the work of a mega cooporation.

Animation Primer
-----------------
A quick wikipedia search for the 12 principles of animation(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_p ... _animation) would inform you of all you need. There are supposedly more for computer animation but most based on the 12.
In both cases their rules are often meant for non-realistic characters but they are still the basis for all animation and even used in Anime but with some shortcuts.

Major re-occurence and bad animation techniques
------------------------------------------------
In 2007, one of the most repeated news about pes 2008 was that they were gonna use a new animations system due to the fact that they have increased the number of bones in the spine from 2 (Old-gen: ps2 , wii) to 3 (Current-gen: PC, Ps3, 360). That year we saw a horrible implementation of the system.
Instead of focusing on adding more curves and expresivity to the spine/torso they added more sway and swinging.
Naturally men move shoulders more and women move hips, so when Suff said it looked like his sister running he was spot on.
Slowly they were removed but now they are very stiff looking. They may be the same as the ps2 version but due to the longer torso and the point of curvature it looks super stiff. It also looks like there are only 2 bones once more.
Fifa does just enough spine curvature. Uncharted 2 add life to their characters with procedural breathing for every locomotion eg running, idle (GDC 09, 10, 11) gdcvault.com


The strides the players take seems unrealistically large. Full length strides are usually reserved for sprinting. In konami's case - due to the ball often being too far when the animation is triggered it creates a stuttered feel to the movement as the players have to strech to meet the ball. They probably did this to make tackle animations look good and avoid legs cliping and relied on their IK (inverse kinematics) to make it look accurate and not good. The animator might have realized the streching and added more frames post contact with ball to make it look good hence the unresponsiveness in pes 2010.

As far as responsiveness goes, often in Japanese animations (Anime and Games) they prefer working with less frames as it creates more snappy feel to the animations and ompf as well as it being cheaper to create (Especially when key framed by hand). Now counter this with the traditional disney rubbery feel you get from the west. Think i am lying? Just youtube any Japanese animation and what how often they move their characters and how lond they are willing to keep them static and move only the essentials even most of their games lack slow pensive animation (Except Final fantasy. The point I am trying to make is that they may not be used to simulation quality animation. But that may not matter since they are using mocap in a very small room and the actor cannot even sprint in that prison room.
(see pes 2011 press trip)

Their solution to unresposniveness looks as though it involved removing frames which means joints traveled over longer distance in shorter time periods meaning less smootness and fluidity. It also help with performance meanign less memory is taken. Compare that with EA and Fifa 2008. They visibly had more frames to their animations and did not want to lose that quality for responsiveness, therefore they came up with a more naturally looking method of warping the play back time of animations especially when coming in contact with the ball (GDC 2010). It means the animation can be quick when they need it to be and slow when they dont need it but keepign fluidity all together.

Eye tracking is totaly random in pes. Often it sucks out the intention and anticipation from an animation. Doesnt influence the rest of the body well enough (Head, neck, shoulders , chest). EA does this with the help of HumanIK. There are many easily programmable solutions to this outside human IK.

Extreme joint rotations. Konami seems to have no problems rotating the characters to the max of their joints. considering how many people cannot voluntarily do that it makes the animations look insane. Couple that with their frequent use of twining, we get a very stiff and robotic look to the game. EA's flailing arms may look stupid but it is forgiveable in comparison. Also it seems ea might be using some procedural method for that.
Perfectly Horizontal and vertical limb poses (90 or 180 degrees) are always to be avoided. Also when working with IK perfectly straight limbs often cause popping.
Actually Chair Entertainment(Makers of Infinity Blade and Shadow complex) released a talk where they describe a very simple and cheap way to include natural physics into animations. Things like drag and follow through that would liven and un-stiffen the hands and the feet when in the air (Gamefest 2008).
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

I went through a lot of the clip frame by frame and these are some notes on the most horrible frames and poses that stood out in the pes trailer
I seem to have lost image 04.


01) - Air trap
**************************
This image reeks of stiffness. The jersey and shorts fold dont help.

A. Totally stiff undynamic spine
B. Twining arms. Undynamic., bicycle handlebars.
C. Mucular leg looks too abnormal could be tonded down to give better shape to poses (Mre of model than animation).
the knee could also be turn a bit more to the outside to counter the direction of the ball and enhance the cushioning effect the skill is meant to potray.
D. The leg should be a bit more relaxed to give grace and fluidity to the animation. There is no need for that much tension and effort in a limb that has no purpos to the action. Snaping the feet to its maximum bend passively/ sub conciously seems implausible.


02) - Run A
**************************
The most common animation frame in pes.

A. Arms twining. Unnecesarily stressed, stiff and robotic. Not optimal for running probably even worse. Urealistic joint range.
B. Straight spine. Maybe not so traight but so undynamic.
C. Unbelievable streched leg. Its so straight all joints are at their limits extended to their max. Loses all form of appeal and grace. Look at the toe and knee in the image to the left.
D. Was probably complainting about how low the knee is and how much it forces ronaldo to dip.
E. What is he looking at? What is his intention? anticipation.
F. This explains D better. Ronaldo is literarilty streching like hell. It shows he is barely in control of the ball and it means that his touch should not be good. Most importantly it means when he plants his foot its gonna take even more effort to get the next step in and he would have to dip really low. This does not promote fluidity. It makes sudden agile movements difficult in real life and in animations it would make blends pop or require more frames.


03) - Run B
**************************
A regular knock ball running animation. Dont remember why i picked this frame.

A. Not sure what he is looking at consider how lose the ball is from him but it is passable
B. His arms are twining. They look stick and lifeless. Also a very boring torso. Even if he was stoping to controll the ball it looks too undesireable.
C. Cannot remember why i picked C but i think he has reached the clima of his step while still too far from the ball.


05) - Acute Turn
**************************
This is a turn at speed of around 30-60 degrees. The pose has very little motion and doesnt look very dynamic

A. Very robotic stiff arm swing. Clenched fist doesnt help make it appealing. Equally stiff shoulder
B. The distance to the ball seems very large and would put the player at a disadvantage mid move due to the fact that
there would be a need to rebalance after the step making turns less than fluid especially when continous
C. Zero body lean and extremley stiff brick of a torso.
D. Not sure what he is looking at. Removes purpose intentionality and intensity. Weakens the anticipation of the move.




06) - Step over
**************************
This image epitomises the guy sitting on the chair and flinging his legs feel of step overs.

A. Arm looks stiff and robotic. Very mechanical looking swing
B. Just like in A the shoulders look very stiff and tensed. Raised
C. The distance the foot has to travels seems too large and contributes to the streched snappy feel of the move
D. Torso Once again is perfectly straight doesnt seem to be leaning or hunching forward

Also i noticed Adam talked about how the animations are often oblivious to their environment.
A technique EA uses is to play 2 or more different animations.
One for upper body and the other for lower body (Or just hands or spine)
NBA 2k12 also uses this to animate their jump shots

http://www.gamespot.com/news/madden-nfl ... on-6257086
http://www.digitalsportscene.net/forum/ ... otion.html

It requires a bit of tuning to get right.


Regards

You must be joking, right?

Hate to be horrible, as you worked hard on this. But that was a complete waste of time.

Of course the same flaws are in, PES 2013 is using exactly the same engine as PES 2012. We all knew this months ago.

Shame you didn't, would've saved you some time.